Tag: Lee factory crimp die

Lee .357 Magnum Dies, Cast vs Jacketed Bullets, and Crimping

This blog is longer than I intended it to be.  I thought I would just do a quick bit about a new set of Lee reloading dies I recently purchased, but as I got into it, I learned more about my  Colt Python, crimping with a bullet seating die versus a dedicated factory crimp die, and well, the thing just grew.  Mea culpa; you can leave early if you want to.  Because this is a longer-than usual post, I thought I’d provide the bottom line up front:   The Lee factory crimp die is a good thing.  It works.  It holds bullets in place better, it improves chambering, and it improves accuracy.  

Now, the rest of the story.

For the last umpteen years when loading .38 Special or .357 Magnum ammo I have been using a kluged-up three die set (a carbide resizer/decapper from Dillon, an expander die from Lee, and a bullet seating and roll crimping die from Lee).   You  can use the same dies for both .38 Special and .357 Magnum; the only difference between the two cartridges is the length of the cartridge case.  They use the same diameter bullets (even though it’s called a .38 Special, the bullet diameter of a .38 is actually .357 to .358 inches, just like the .357 Magnum).

The two cartridges on the left are .357 Magnum; the one on the right is a .38 Special. The .357 cartridge case is longer so it cannot be inadvertently inserted into a handgun chambered for .38 Special. Note the slightly longer overall cartridge length on the .357 Magnum cartridge on the left (with the cast bullet) compared to the .357 Magnum cartridge in the middle (with the jacketed bullet).
A mixed set of dies I’ve been using for years for reloading .357 Magnum and .38 Special. Note the Lee shellholder marked “1.”  .38 Special used to be the most commonly reloaded cartridge in America.  Today it’s 9mm.  .38 Special was the first cartridge I ever reloaded.  The die on the right is the bullet seating and crimping die.

Reloading Gear

I’ve had a few .38/.357 die sets over the years, selling them when convenient as I bought or inherited other equipment. As featured here on the ExNotes blog, I have a 50-year-old Star reloader I use for .38 Special wadcutter ammo (I’ll give you a link for the Star story at the end of this blog). The Star is set up to meter 2.7 grains of Bullseye propellant (that’s a 148-grain wadcutter target load) and it works fabulously well, so it’s a dedicated setup. For all other .38 Special and for .357 Magnum reloading, I load with my RCBS Rockchucker single-stage press. I’ve been using it for 50 years.

My Star progressive reloader. A good buddy gave this to me in rundown, funky, and long-neglected condition. I cleaned it, lubed it, and put in back in service. The Star does a fantastic job on .38 Special wadcutter ammo.
Old Faithful, my RCBS Rockchucker single stage press. I load non-wadcutter .38 Special ammo and all .357 Magnum ammo on this press.

Bullet Seating and Crimping

For many years, I seated and crimped my bullets with a simple seating and crimping die.  It’s what you see in the illustration below.

I use this die in two steps.  First, I screw the bullet seating adjuster deep into the die and seat the bullet to the correct cartridge overall length without crimping the bullet in place.  After seating all the bullets, I then back off on the bullet seating adjuster so that it no longer contacts the bullet, and then I screw the die body deeper into the press.  The die body has a roll crimping feature that then roll forms a crimp around the case mouth to lock the bullet to the cartridge case.

Lee has an alternative approach for bullet crimping they call the factory crimp die.  As a first step, you seat the bullet to the desired depth in the case using the die shown above.  After seating all the bullets, you then remove the bullet seating and crimping die from the press and then use the fourth die (the factory crimp die).  Here’s what the factory crimp die looks like:

The fourth die, the factory crimp die, does not seat the bullet.  Its only function is to apply the crimp, and it does this very well.   The idea is that the die is screwed all the way into the press such that it contacts the shellhoder, and then the amount of crimp is set up with the crimp adjuster, which screws into the die body.  This die applies a roll crimp on a revolver cartridge (the same kind of crimp as the bullet seating and crimping die described above), but it does so in a much better-controlled manner.   The factory crimp die also has a secondary carbide sizer/aligning ring at its lower end, which aligns the cartridge as it enters the case, and holds the cartridge outside diameter to specification values as the cartridge enters and then exits the die.  It works fabulously well, and Lee states that this die makes it impossible to buckle a case.

I had .357 Magnum ammo I had previously loaded using the bullet seating and crimping die only (not the Lee factory crimp die), and it chambered with no problem in my Ruger Blackhawk.  The Colt Python has a tighter chamber, though, and several of these older reloads would not chamber in the Python.  A quick trip through the Lee factory crimp die cleaned up the outside diameters and the rounds chambered easily.

Before and after shots of older .357 loads I reloaded using the bullet seating and crimping die. Some wouldn’t chamber in the tighter Python. The Lee factory crimp die fixed that.

Lee’s Deluxe 4-Die Set

I recently ordered a new Ruger Blackhawk, and I’ve written many times about my Colt Python.  With my new .357 Magnum Blackhawk in its 10-day cooling off period, I thought I would get a new set of dies.  I like Lee (they give you a shellholder, they are inexpensive, and they do a good job). I had bent the decapping pin on the Dillon sizing die in my mixed set of dies shown above (a primer wouldn’t come out and I forced it). I was able to bend the pin straight, but I figured a man of my stature ought to have a set of grownup new dies. Then I got an email from MidwayUSA showing the Lee 4-die set on sale for $53 and they had free shipping on orders over $49.  The Lee Deluxe set includes the factory crimp die.  All the planets were in alignment (enter order, buy now…you know the drill).  The dies were at my front door a few days later.

The new Lee 4-die Deluxe Set was well packaged by Midway.
The Lee dies in my new die set.
The Lee Deluxe 4-die set includes a carbidge sizing die and decapper (the die on the far right), a cartridge expander and case mouth flaring die (on the far left), a bullet seating and roll crimping die (second from the right), and the Lee factory crimp die (second from the left). Lee also provides a shell holder and power dispensing spoon. I’ve never used the powder dispensing spoon; I use an RCBS powder dispenser.

The new dies looked great, and I was eager to put them to work.

Bullet Pull and Cylinder Rotation

On revolvers with significant recoil, bullets can back out of the cartridge case when other rounds in the cylinder are fired.  This can allow bullets on unfired cartridges to protrude beyond the cylinder face and interfere with cylinder rotation.  We prevent this by controlling the reloaded cartridges’ overall length and by crimping.  In firing my new Colt Python with ammo I had loaded for an earlier Ruger Blackhawk, even though the bullets were crimped I experienced bullet pull beyond the front of the cylinder.  When this occurred, the cylinder would not rotate.  These same rounds had worked in a Ruger Blackhawk.

In analyzing the cylinder rotation issue on my new Python, I found several things:

      • The bullets were not seated deep enough (the cartridge overall length exceeded the maximum spec of 1.590 inches), even though the bullets were crimped in their crimping groove.
      • The crimp wasn’t strong enough to hold the bullets in place.  Under recoil from other cartridges, the bullets were backing out.
      • The Python cylinder is slightly shorter than the Ruger Blackhawk cylinder.  I probably had the same bullet pull occurring on the Blackhawk, but the Blackhawk’s longer cylinder masked it.  They might have been backing out on the Ruger and I didn’t know it.

Cartridge Overall Length

Let’s dive into the numbers.  The reloading manuals show the .357 Magnum maximum cartridge overall length (COAL) to be 1.590 inches.  With my cast bullets crimped in their crimping groove, the overall length was running from 1.607 to 1.615 inches.  That put them about even with the front of the Python cylinder.  If any bullet pull occurred under recoil, the front of the bullet would hit the rear of the forcing cone and the cylinder wouldn’t rotate.  That’s what I experienced with my Python.

The Ruger New Model .357 Blackhawk has a longer cylinder than the Python.  The Ruger cylinder is 1.640 inches long.  The Internet says the Python cylinder length is 1.552 inches; mine measures 1.553 (which is close enough).   Right away, the astute ExNotes blog reader will recognize that the Colt’s cylinder (at 1.552 inches) appears to be shorter than the specification .357 Magnum cartridge maximum overall length (1.590 inches), but it is not.  When loaded in the cylinder the cartridge is held rearward by its rim, which sits flush against the back end of the cylinder.

The Python, like most revolvers, headspaces on the cartridge rim. The cartridge rim is 0.060 inches thick.

The .357 Magnum cartridge rim backs the cartridge up 0.060 inches (the rim thickness), which would put the leading edge of the bullet in a cartridge loaded to an overall length of 1.590 inches about 0.023 inches inside the front edge of the cylinder (if I’ve done the math correctly).  And I think I have, because when you look at cartridges in the Python cylinder, they are pretty close to the edge of those big .357 cylinder holes.  0.023 inches.  Twenty-three thousandths of an inch.  That’s not much to play with.

.357 Magnum cartridges loaded in the Python cylinder. At the cartridge’s specified max overall length of 1.590 inches, the front of the bullet is only 0.023 inches away from the forward cylinder face.

Bullet Design and Crimp Location

I examined the bullets I was using.  I had crimped my cast bullets in the crimping groove, and I could see that the  crimping groove put the bullet face very close to the forward end of the Python’s cylinder.  I couldn’t seat the cast bullets any deeper and still crimp in their crimping groove. Hornady’s jacketed 158-grain bullets are no problem; their crimping groove is a lot higher on the bullet.

A 158-grain Hornady jacketed hollow point bullet on the left, and a cast 158-grain bullet on the right. Note how much higher the crimping groove is on the jacketed bullet. This lowers the bullet in the cartridge case when it is crimped, making the cartridge shorter.
Two .357 Magnum cartridges with crimped bullets. The cast bullet cartridge on the right has the bullet seated as low as it can go while still allowing a crimp. You can see that the cast bullet cartridge is longer than the cartridge with the jacketed bullet.

Test Objectives

I wanted to test bullets seated and crimped using both approaches (i.e., the bullet seating and crimping die, versus seating with the bullet seating die and crimping separately with the Lee factory crimp die).  My testing would evaluate the following:

      • Bullet movement under recoil.
      • Accuracy.
      • Ease of chambering.
      • The ability to get a good crimp in locations other than the crimping groove.

That last one is important, because as I learned with my Python, crimping some cast bullet configurations in the crimping groove makes the cartridge too long.

Test Ammo

I loaded three test lots.  The first was with 15.7 grains of Winchester 296 powder, Winchester small pistol magnum primers, and Hornady’s 158-grain jacketed hollow point bullets. That was my accuracy load when shooting metallic silhouette a few decades ago, so I know it works well. I loaded half with the bullets crimped using the old Lee bullet seating and crimping die (not the factory crimp die), and the other half with the bullets crimped with my new Lee factory crimp die (after seating them with the bullet seating die).

.357 Magnum ammo with 158-grain Hornady jacketed hollowpoint bullets. The 25 on the right were crimped with the bullet seating die; the 25 on the left were crimped with the Lee factory crimp die.
A macro photograph of the ammo above. The Lee factory crimp due cartridge is on the left; the bullet crimped with the bullet seating die is on the right.

The second lot of ammo was a group I had loaded several years ago.  This ammo had 158-grain cast semi-wadcutter bullets crimped in the crimping groove, 7.0 grains of Unique, and Winchester small pistol primers.  That load (7.0 grains of Unique and a 158-grain cast bullet) has been accurate in every .357 revolver I’ve ever shot.   I loaded this ammo with the bullet seating and crimping die (not the Lee factory crimp die).  I’d shot tons of this load in an older Ruger Blackhawk, but I had not tried it yet in my Python.

.357 Magnum ammo with cast 158-grain semi-wadcutter bullets crimped in their crimping groove. This ammo worked fine in the Ruger Blackhawk, but it had issues in the Colt Python.  Although crimped in the crimping groove, this ammo was longer than the .357 Magnum’s 1.590-inch maximum cartridge overall length.

The third ammo lot was similar to the one above (same bullet weight and powder), but I used the cast truncated flat point bullet and I crimped above the bullet’s crimping groove using the Lee factory crimp die.  I wanted to get the bullet further back from the cylinder face to prevent cylinder rotation inteference if the bullets pulled under recoil.  My concern was that I would be crimping above the crimping groove, on the bullet’s main diameter, and I didn’t know if the crimp would hold the bullet in place.

The cast 158-grain truncated flat point bullet crimped above the crimping groove.   This shortens the cartridge overall length. I seated these to 1.565 inches overall length. After crimping, that figure came back up back up to 1.568 inches, still well below the 1.590-inch maximum length spec.
The above .357 cartridges in the Python cylinder crimped with the Lee factory crimp die above the crimping groove.  These rounds were loaded to an overall cartridge length of 1.568 inches (as shown above), which positions the front of the bullets further back from the cylinder face.

When loading with my new Lee Deluxe 4-die set, I noticed immediately that the resizing operation was much easier.  The same was true for the expander die step.  Maybe the older dies I had been using were just dirty, but I sure like do the feel of these Lee Deluxe dies.

Some of you may wonder:  Why not just trim the brass shorter to a below-spec length?  That would move the bullet back, and if I trimmed it short enough it would allow me to crimp these cast bullets in their crimping groove and not risk any cylinder rotation interference.  Yeah, I could have done that, but when I trim brass I like to trim it to specification, not something below spec.  And I don’t want to have to segregate brass based on trimmed length tied to specific firearms.

Test Results:  Bullet Movement

The first test objective was to determine how much bullet movement occurs during recoil using the two different crimping approaches.  Here’s how I tested:

      • I loaded 5 rounds in the revolver.
      • I took a 6th round and recorded its cartridge overall length, and then I loaded it.
      • I fired the first five cartridges.
      • I removed the unfired 6th round and measured the overall length again.

Here’s what I found in assessing the two crimping approaches’ ability to prevent bullet pull:

The results surprised me.  The Lee factory crimp die, even when done on the main diameter of the bullet (not in the crimping groove) does a better job holding the bullet in place than does crimping with the bullet seating die.  In each test in which the bullets were crimped with the bullet seating die, they experienced recoil-induced bullet movement.  That one entry where the overall length decreased by 0.001 inch is probably measurement error on my part.

Test Results:  Accuracy

This testing was straightforward.  I fired a series of 5-round groups at 50 feet to assess any differences in accuracy.

Here’s what I see in the above results:

      • With the Hornady jacketed hollow point points, using the Lee factory crimp die resulted in an improvement in accuracy (the group average was 1.637 inches compared to 1.934 inches).
      • The Hornady jacketed hollow point bullets were more accurate than the cast bullets.  That was an expected result.
      • With the cast bullets, there isn’t much of an accuracy difference between using the bullet seating and crimping die versus using the bullet seating die and then the Lee factory crimp die.
      • With the cast bullets, there wasn’t much of an accuracy difference between the truncated flat point bullets and the semi-wadcutter bullets.

I wasn’t having my best range day ever (I had a bad cold when I fired these groups).   But I think I did well enough to support the above conclusions.

Test Results:  Ease of Chambering

I already mentioned this.  Lee claims that the factory crimp die will not buckle or distort the case during crimping.   My results confirm this.  A few rounds that had been crimped with the bullet seating die would not chamber in the Python; after running these through the Lee factory crimp die, they chambered easily.  The Lee factory crimp die does a better job for ease of chambering.

Test Results:  Crimping Without a Crimp Groove

This is really a subset of the first test objective, in which we evaluated the ability of the Lee factory crimp die to hold bullets in place under recoil.  Here, the focus is more specific:  I crimped on the bullet’s main diameter, not in the crimping groove, and I wanted to determine if the Lee factory crimp die would secure the bullet in place.  As you can see from the data above, it did.  When I crimped the cast truncated flat point bullets forward of the crimping groove, they did not move under recoil.  The Lee factory crimp die did this well, and it did so without buckling the cartridge case.

The Bottom Line

The Lee factory crimp die is a good thing.  It holds bullets in place better, it improves chambering, and with jacketed bullets, it improves accuracy.

If you want to buy a set a Lee dies, or the Lee factory crimp die, or any Lee reloading equipment, Amazon is a good place to shop.  Midway is,  too.  But I usually go to Amazon first.

If you have comments, be sure to let us know in the comments section below.  We enjoy hearing from you.

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The CMP Custom Gunshop, a 1903 Springfield, and Cast Bullets

This is an interesting story and it’s one of the very few times in my life I was hosed on a firearm purchase.  The rifle is a 1903 Springfield I bought a few years ago and didn’t shoot much.  The times I shot it previously I had experimented with cast bullets and it shot okay, but not great.  Then I tried it with jacketed bullets (loads at much higher pressures), and what do you know, I had a headspace issue.  I could see it in the primers that had partially backed out of the brass after firing, and on one round, I split a case circumferentially just ahead of the base (indicating with near certainty an excess head space issue).  I borrowed good buddy Greg’s 30 06 head space gages, and the bolt closed on both the no go and the field service gages.  That’s a no no.

The 1903 Springfield rear sight. The 1903A3 went to a much less expensive stamped steel rear aperture sight.

My first thought was to have the existing barrel set back and rechambered, but that didn’t work.  The 1903 Springfield has a barrel collar that holds a very sophisticated rear sight and positions the upper handguard.  When we set the barrel back, the rear sight integrity was greatly weakened and the front handguard had excess play.  Nope, I needed a new barrel.

I checked around and came to the conclusion that the best place to get this kind of work done is the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) Custom Gunshop.  This is a quasi-government arsenal and these folks are the experts.   I priced having a new barrel and rear sight collar installed on my 1903, cutting a new 30 06 chamber with the correct headspace, and having the entire gun re-Parkerized.  The work was surprisingly reasonable.  I had to wait my turn in line, but that’s okay.  I had other guns I could shoot.

With a re-Parkerized finish and a new barrel, my 1903 looks great.
Very cool. The 1903 “scant” stock, complete with cartouche.

When the rifle was returned to me, it was stunning.  It literally looked like a brand new 1903.  A quick trip to the range followed, and I tried some jacketed bullet factory level reloads.  I loaded and fed from the magazine, as the 1903 is a controlled round feed and it’s best in these guns to let the cartridge rim ride up and find its position behind the extractor.

A 30 06 cartridge in the 1903’s magazine.

I shot a few targets with copper jacketed bullets and found that the rifle shot about a 8 inches high and slightly to the right.  The rear sight would take care of the right bias, and I figured the high impacts were okay.  Some military rifles of this era are designed with a 300-yard battlesight zero, which means they shoot to point of aim at 300 yards at the lowest sight setting (everything in between is high, with the idea being that if you hold center-of-mass on a human size target, you’ll have a hit out to 400 or 500 yards).

High and slightly to the right with factory-level reloads. My point of aim was 6:00 on the orange bullseye.

I could buy a taller front sight blade to lower the point of impact, but that wasn’t the way I wanted to go.  Nope, my plan was to shoot cast bullets in this rifle.  My guess was that if the rifle shot 8 inches high at 50 yards with jacketed bullets, cast bullets would be right where I wanted them to be.

Loading my first batch of 1903 cast bullet test ammo was easy.  Years ago I was on a reloading tear, and I had loaded a bunch of plated 110-grain round nose bullets with 14.0 grains of Unique.  I knew those loads were terrible in other 30 06 rifles (the lead under the copper plating is dead soft and it tears off, resulting in terrible accuracy).  Hey, no problem.  I pulled the plated bullets, left the 14.0 grains of Unique in the cartridges, flared the case mouths, and seated different cast bullets.  One was the 180-grain cast Hursman bullets with gas checks (these worked well in the .300 Weatherby), the other was the 210-grain Montana bullets I picked up from good buddy Paul (these are also gas checked bullets).  After seating the cast bullets, I crimped the brass with my Lee factory crimp die.

The Lee factory crimp die. It’s shown here with a jacketed bullet. It has collets that circumferentially crimp the case mouth to the bullet.
30 06 reloads with cast bullets. That’s the Montana bullet on the upper cartridge, and the Hursman bullet in the lower cartridge.  If you look closely, you can see that the case mouth has been crimped by the Lee factory crimp die.
A macro shot of the Hursman 180 grain bullet. The case was crimped with a Lee factory crimp die.
A similar photo of the Montana bullet. It’s cast with a Lyman mold. The Montana bullet’s rounded nose fed better from the 1903 magazine.

I only loaded 20 rounds (10 each with the two different cast bullets), as this was to be a “quick look” evaluation.

A morning at the range on an overcast day, a beautiful 1903 Springfield rifle, and .30 06 ammo loaded with cast bullets. Life doesn’t get much better.

Both loads shot reasonably well.   I’m not going into the upholstery business with either of these loads (they are not tack drivers), but they are good enough.  I was particularly pleased with the 210-grain Montana bullets.  The Hursman bullets had proved to be the preferred load in the .300 Weatherby; the Springfield showed a decided preference for the Montana bullets.

I shot at 50 yards with both loads; future testing will be with the Montana bullet at 100 yards.

The Hursman bullet load at 50 yards. The load was 14.0 grains of Unique; it may be that the Hursman bullets will group better with other propellants.
The Montana bullet at 50 yards on the left-most bullseye (the other bullseyes were shot with a Mosin-Nagnt rifle, covered in another blog). I found a sweet spot with that 14.0-grain Unique load and the Montana bullet.

Unique is not the best powder out there for loading cast bullets in rifle cartridges.  In the past, I’ve shot much better groups in other rifles with IMR 4227, 5744, SR 4759, and Trail Boss.  Those evaluations in the 1903 are coming up.  For now, I know I’ve got a good load with Unique and the Montana bullets.

One of the big takeaways for me in this adventure is that when you buy a milsurp rifle, always check the headspace to make sure that it is within specification.   It’s pretty common for these rifles to have gone through arsenal rebuilds and to have been cobbled together from parts bins, and when that occurs, if the chamber isn’t matched to the bolt you can have an excess headspace problem.   That’s a bad situation, as it can be dangerous to the shooter and anyone nearby.

You can find headspace gages on Amazon and elsewhere.  If you’re going to buy a military surplus rifle, checking the headspace should be part of the drill.

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The Mini 14 and Lee’s Factory Crimp Die

I love the Ruger Mini 14 and I’ve written several blogs on it (I’ll give you a link at the end of this blog).  The Mini 14 is not the most accurate rifle I’ve ever shot, but there’s something about it that just makes it fun.  I think if Ruger had introduced the Mini 14 a few years earlier it might have been the next US service rifle instead of Mattel’s M-16.  That statement might get a few trolls’ shorts in a knot, but hey, they’re young.  They’ll get over it.

Photos from the original GunBroker.com ad for my Mini 14. It was a limited production item with a Circassian walnut stock. Very few had wood this highly figured.

I took my Mini to the West End Gun Club a couple of weeks ago to see what impact (if any) a new Lee factory crimp die had on accuracy.  Usually when I reload rifle cartridges with jacketed bullets I don’t crimp.  Part of this is because it’s a bit difficult to get a consistent crimp if the brass is not trimmed to exactly the same length, and part of it is I often find I don’t need to trim my brass to get good accuracy.  That’s not to say case neck tension isn’t critical (it is; lube a couple of bullets before seating them and see how far out of the group they print).  But it you don’t crimp, you rely on friction between the case neck and the bullet to control the case’s grip, and friction is a tough thing to control.  Crimping should make the grip on the bullet more consistent (or so the theory goes).  Crimping is also thought to provide more complete combustion, reducing pressure variability and the inaccuracies associated with it.

Conventional reloading dies rely on a reduced diameter in the bullet seating die, which rolls the case mouth into the bullet to achieve a crimp (such a crimp is called a roll crimp).   Lee’s factory crimp die uses a different approach.  It has four collets (each forms a quadrant) that work at 90 degrees to the case to crimp the brass.  The collets are activated by the die’s base during the reloading press upstroke.

A .223 Lee factory crimp die. This is the last step in the reloading process. The die is screwed into the press after the bullet has been seated to the desired depth (left photo); the amount the die is screwed into the press controls the interface between the shell holder and the die (center photo). When the ram is fully raised, the die has collets that compress the brass horizontally around the case mouth (right photo), thereby crimping the bullet in place in the same manner as factory ammunition.
The view from above. The collets squeeze the brass around the bullet to crimp it in the case.
A 7.65x53mm Belgian Mauser round with a cast bullet roll crimped in place (left), and a .223 Remington/5.56mm NATO cartridge crimped with the Lee factory crimp die. The difference is subtle, but you can see it if you look closely.

I loaded 15 rounds crimped in the Lee factory crimp die, and I used another 15 rounds without the crimp.  I shot two targets at 100 yards from a rest using iron sights, with 15 rounds for each target. The target on the left is with no crimp, the one on the right is with the Lee factory crimp die (and I used a heavy crimp). The brass was fireformed in this rifle and neck sized only to get a good fit in the Mini 14’s 5.56 NATO chamber, which (as you know) is slightly larger than the .223 Remington cartridge.  In prior load development work, I found that neck sized only brass is much more accurate in the Mini 14.

15 uncrimped .223 rounds at 100 yards (left target) and 15 rounds crimped with the Lee factory crimp die (right target).

The first five shots using uncrimped reloads all went into the left target’s 10-ring, so I thought I was doing pretty well. Then I switched to the Lee factory crimp die ammo on the right target. The first shot felt weird, and it did not fully extract. I think it was the one that went way low. The next four all went into the 10 ring. On the next five rounds (again, using the Lee die ammo on the right target), the first one did the same thing (it failed to extract and it went low).  I fired one more magazine of Lee crimped ammo and all five worked okay.

Somewhere in those first two magazines of the Lee crimped ammo, I had two light primer strikes that did not fire. I extracted and chambered them again and they fired on the second attempt.  I didn’t know why those two rounds had light primer strikes.  Maybe the round had not fully chambered? Maybe because the Lee factory crimp die distorted the case mouth or something and it didn’t fully chamber?  Or maybe something was interfering with the firing pin’s travel?  I didn’t know and I wouldn’t find out until I disassembled rifle.

Then I fired 10 more uncrimped rounds at the target on the left and I had one failure to eject. My Mini 14 sometimes acts funny like that with the neck sized brass. It’s not a duty gun, so I thought I could live with an occasional failure to eject.  But I don’t like it.

So back to those misfires.  In the past, I’ve had to clean debris from around the firing pin, and it looked to me like it might be time to do that again. That could account for the two light firing pin strikes I had.

One other thing…I had painted the front sight with red nail polish, and that actually made the front sight’s top edge harder to see.  I want to go back to the plain blued front sight.

I also want to adjust the Lee factory crimp for less of a crimp. These first rounds used a max crimp. I didn’t trim the brass for this test because it was only fired once, but I don’t know how even (in length) it was. I used bulk Remington loaded ammo to get the brass (having fired it previously in the Mini 14) because a couple of years ago that stuff actually cost less than unprimed brass.  But inexpensive bulk ammo is not precision made and I suspect the case length had some variation (my suspicions were later confirmed, as you’ll read below).

A Lyman case trimmer I’ve been using for nearly 50 years. The Lee factory crimp die does not require case trimming, but the cases had enough length variability that I decided to trim them anyway. Cases that are too long can interfere with the bolt fully closing and raise chamber pressures.

When I reloaded the rounds fired in this test, I checked a few case lengths after neck sizing. The “trim to” length (per the Hornady manual) is supposed to be 1.750 inches, with a max case length of 1.760 inches. These cases (after two firings and neck sizing) were all over the map.  They ranged from 1.752 to 1.780. That alone could account for some of the anomalies described above.  I ran them all through the trimmer and reloaded a hundred for the next range visit. I backed off a bit on the Lee factory crimp die, too, as my good buddy Robby suggested.

I gave the Mini 14 a good cleaning and I was surprised at how filthy it was. This is not a rifle that I clean religiously…I’ll shoot it on several outings before cleaning (heresy, I know, but hey…it is what it is).  I wanted to grab a few photos of what a funky Mini 14 can look like, but my hands were so dirty and greasy I didn’t want to handle my Nikon camera.  After the most recent range visit, I Hoppes No 9’ed the Mini 14 bore for a couple days to get all the copper out (you know, until the patches came out with no green).

There were bits of what appeared to be very thin sheet brass in the bolt around the firing pin as well as a whole bunch of greasy carbon residue in the bolt. That could account for the couple of misfires. Removing the firing pin is not an easy job (it takes a special tool I don’t have or want); the drill here was to shpritz the hell out of the bolt with carb cleaner and work the firing pin back and forth to push the nasty stuff out. The thin brass bits might have been primer cup material.  Or they might have been chips from the extraction operation that found their way into the bolt and were peened flat. There’s no way of telling, as some of that ejected brass ends up in the next county (a trait Mini 14s are famous for).  By the way, when you’re working with that carb cleaner, you need to do it outdoors where there’s plenty of fresh air.  It’s highly flammable and if I use that stuff indoors, I get lightheaded and nauseated pretty quickly.

There was a lot of carbon gunk in the stock channel clear back into the action.  There was also a lot of carbon in and on the guide rod, as well as around the extractor. This could account for the occasional failures to eject. I blew it all out with WD 40 (in the stock) and carb cleaner (for the metal pieces).  There was so much carbon residue in the stock’s barrel channel that I thought I might have a leak around the gas port, but I didn’t see any carbon residue around the gas port and I’ve got the Allen bolts around that part tightened as tight as I dare go. I tried the smaller diameter aftermarket gas ports last year, but every one of them gave me unreliable function, so I went back to the stock port.

I’ve got a little more than a pound of ARComp, and that has been my “go to” Mini 14 powder for several years. When things started to get tight last year, my reloading outlet had an 8-pound bottle of XBR 8208 (it was the last bottle of anything he had). I had never heard of that powder before but I figured it would work in something, and in poking around on the Internet I found that 8208 gets the nod as a great powder for the .223 cartridge. The hundred rounds I just loaded are with ARComp, but I think I will do another 100 or so with different 8208 charges to see how they do. I’ve still got several hundred 62-grain Hornady full metal jacket bullets and I have another 500 55-grain bullets that just arrived from Midway. And I have small rifle primers and a potful of .223 brass. Unlike a lot of folks, I’m in good shape for .223 for a while (and no, I don’t want to sell or trade any components).

What’s the bottom line to all this?  Did the Lee factory crimp die improve accuracy?  The short answer is: I don’t know yet. I think it does, but I had too many other things going on with the rifle and the brass to be sure. If you ignore the first two rounds that went low, I think the accuracy edge goes to the Lee crimped ammo. Bear in mind that I was shooting with iron sights at 100 yards, so the differences may be more due to me than anything else. There were only four rounds outside the 10 ring with the Lee ammo; the uncrimped ammo had six rounds outside the 10-ring. But again, it’s iron sights at 100 yards, so who knows?

I’m going to share this post on Facebook, and you can bet some yahoo will tell me that he shoots 1/2-inch groups at 200 yards with open sights on his Mini 14 all day long.  Hey, it’s the Internet.  You have to ignore those buttheads.  As far as the Lee factory crimp die’s accuracy edge goes, I think it’s real.  I’ll find out for sure (maybe) the next time I go to the range.  Everything in the Mini is clean, lightly oiled, and ready for action. We’ll see what happens on the next outing, and you’ll read about here on the ExNotes blog.

Those other Mini 14 blogs I mentioned above?  You can find them here!

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A Tale of Two More .45s

A couple of weeks ago I tested three .45 ACP loads in a Model 625 Smith and Wesson and my Rock Island Armory Compact 1911 using Winchester’s 231 powder and Jim Gardner’s 230-grain cast roundnose bullets.  We’ve done a bunch of accuracy testing in both .45 ACP revolvers and autos with other loads (and you can find those stories here).  This blog focuses specifically on Jim’s 230-grain roundnose bullets with Winchester 231 propellant.

Reloaded .45 ACP ammo with Gardner 230-grain cast roundnose bullets.  The 230 cast roundnose bullets replicate GI hardball ammo and this bullet feeds in just about any .45 auto.

To get to the point quickly, the Gardner 230-grain cast roundnose bullets did well (as you’ll see below).  My testing consisted of three .45 loads with 4.5, 5.0, and 5.6 grains of WW 231 powder:

I was checking for accuracy and functionality in both guns.  Here’s what I found:

    • The Compact 1911 likes 5.0 grains of 231, and that load functioned best with this powder in the automatic.  The slide locked back after the last round the way it is supposed to; it would not do so with 5.6 grains of 231.  Getting a short-barreled 1911 to function well is a bit tougher than a full-sized 1911.  With 5.0 grains of 231 and the 230-grain cast bullets, my Compact 1911 functions reliably.  Your mileage may vary.
    • 4.5 grains of 231 functioned okay in the 1911, too, but it is the least accurate load in both the 1911 and the Model 625 (of the three loads that I tested).
    • The Model 625 likes both 5.0 and 5.6 grains of 231, with a slight accuracy edge going to the 5.0-grain load (although what you see here is probably more a result of my skills than anything else).  The 625 is not as accurate with the lighter 4.5-grain 231 load.

Lyman’s reloading manual has 5.8 grains of 231 as the accuracy load with this bullet, but I didn’t go that high (it was a max load).  Like I said, it doesn’t function reliably in the Compact 1911, and my testing showed 5.0 grains to be the Model 625’s sweet spot from an accuracy perspective.

All shots were at 50 feet, and all loads used the Lee factory crimp die (which assures easy chambering in 1917-style revolvers).  The loads would do better from a machine rest or a steadier shooter.  It was hot out on the range the morning I fired these targets and that probably adversely affected accuracy, too.

Here are the Compact 1911 targets that I shot using the 5.0-grain 231 load:

Compact 1911 results: Close enough for government work.  I use Alco targets for this kind of testing; these have four silhouettes per sheet.

The Compact 1911 is not a target gun, but it is accurate enough for its intended purpose.  The Rock Compact 1911 is very concealable and it’s the handgun I carry most often.  They are surprisingly inexpensive and surprisingly accurate with the right loads.

These are the targets with the Model 625 and 5.6 grains of 231:

The big Smith and Wesson Model 625 worked well with 231 and Jim’s 230-grain roundnose bullets.  This is the 5.6-grain target; 5.0 grains of 231 were even more accurate for me.

The Model 625 Smith and Wesson is more accurate than the Compact 1911 (hey, no surprises there).  They are both fun guns to shoot.

I usually load .45 ACP ammo with either Unique or Bullseye powder, but I thought I would try 231 just because I had some on hand and I wanted to see how it would do.  I have an accuracy load for the Compact 1911 with Bullseye and a 185-grain bullet that we wrote about earlier.  Other guys tell me 231 is their preferred .45 ACP propellant and I still had a can of it that I had purchased for the 9mm cast bullet comparo some time ago, so I thought I would give it a try in the two guns featured here.  With the sketchy availability of reloading components during these uncertain times, it’s good to know that this powder works well in .45 ACP.  But after this test, I’m going to stick with the other two propellants (Unique and Bullseye), assuming I can get them.  What I didn’t like about 231 is that it is a sooty powder…I found it to be significantly worse in that regard than Unique.

WW 231 propellant is accurate, but it sure is a dirty powder.  My left hand was covered in powder soot after just a few rounds.

I’ve been real happy with Gardner’s bullets.  They are less expensive than other cast bullets, the accuracy is good, and I observed no leading in either handgun. I’ll be purchasing Gardner bullets again.  If you haven’t tried Jim’s bullets, you might give them a try.

More Tales of the Gun, 1911, 1917, bolt action sporter, milsurp, load data, and other good shooting and reloading posts are here!

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The Browning B78

Sometime in the late 1970s, when I was an engineer on the F-16 program at General Dynamics in Fort Worth, Texas, I visited a company called National Water Lift somewhere in the Great Lakes area. What we bought from NWL had nothing to do with water (they made the F-16’s hydraulic accumulators). It’s a lead into this story, which is about my Browning B78 rifle. You see, every time I had to visit one of these distant places on my business travels, it was an opportunity to check out the gun shops in the area. Which I did, and the one that stuck in my mind had a Browning B78.

The Browning B78 Rifle

The B78 was a competitor to Ruger’s No. 1 single-shot rifle, and the design was basically a resurrection of the old Winchester High Wall. Ruger did surprisingly well with the No. 1 back in the 1970s (the idea of a single-shot rifle was intriguing to me and many others), and I guess Browning wanted in on the action (pardon the pun).

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Rugers outsold Brownings probably 10 to 1 (or more) in those days because they were less expensive and Ruger’s marketing was better. But the Browning was (and still is) a very elegant rifle. I saw one at that store (I want to say it was in Kalamazoo, Michigan, but I can’t remember for sure), and it was nice. It was a 30 06 and it had an octagonal barrel, which was all very appealing. But the Browning was a good $100 more than the Ruger and in the 1970s, that kind of money was out of my reach.

Good Deals on Gunbroker

Fast forward 40 years, the Great Recession was upon us, and all kinds of exotic and collectible rifles were popping up on Gunbroker.com (a firearms auction site).  I saw what appeared to be a nice B78 on Gunbroker, with an octagonal barrel, in God’s caliber (that would be .30 06), and I pounced. I paid too much, but we never say it that way. I bought too soon. Yeah, that works. I just bought too soon.

A earlier photo from one of my first range trips with the Browning B78. .30 06, one shot, great walnut, an octagonal barrel…this rifle is elegant.
The B78 is sharp from either side. That’s a Weaver 2×7 scope, and it gets the job done.

After I bought the B78, I wanted to put a period-correct scope on it (you know, from the 1970s) and I found a nice Weaver 2×7 on another auction site.   Weavers are good scopes and the ones from the 1970s were blued steel and made in America.   It was just what the doctor ordered, and it looks right at home on my B78.

My B78 is used, and it’s got a few nicks and dings on it. But the metal work is perfect, and the walnut is (in my opinion) exhibition grade. Take a look, and you tell me.

Good wood. This is exhibition grade walnut…
…and it has fine figure on both sides.

Preferred B78 .30 06 Jacketed Loads

I’ve owned the B78 for about 10 years now, and it’s been a lot of fun. I’ve never seen another B78 on the rifle range, and I’ve certainly never seen one with an octagonal barrel. It’s just a cool firearm. But it is finicky. It likes heavier bullets and with the right load it’s accurate, but getting there took a lot of experimenting, a little bit of forearm re-bedding, and a lot of load development. I’ve got two loads that do very well in it…one is a heavy-duty jacketed load, and the other is a cast bullet light load. The heavy load is with a 180 grain Remington jacketed softpoint and a max load of 4064 (I’ve shot three-quarter-inch groups with this load at 100 yards). That load has big recoil, but it’s tolerable. I tried 180 grain Nosler bullets (that’s a premium bullet), but the rifle does way better with the less-expensive Remington bullets. That’s a good thing, because I found a good deal on 900 of those bullets and they have a home on my reloading bench now.

A Preferred B78 Cast Load

My cast bullet load is a short-range low power load, and it’s recoil is almost nonexistent compared to the jacketed load. It’s a 180 grain cast lead bullet (with a gas check) and 17.0 grains of Trail Boss power. After zeroing the Browning for the jacketed bullet load mentioned above at 100 yards, I had to crank the scope up a cool 85 clicks to bring the cast bullets back on paper at 50 yards (I was surprised there was that much adjustment in the scope). But wow, those cast bullets at 50 yards cloverleafed consistently. It was essentially putting them through the same ragged hole. At 100 yards, getting the cast bullet load back to point of aim involved another 25 clicks of elevation on the Weaver, and again, I was surprised there was that much in the scope. At 100 yards, the cast load groups opened up to about 2 ½ inches, and that’s still okay. What’s nice is I can shoot the cast bullet load all day long. The barrel doesn’t heat up and the recoil is trivial. As you might imagine with a load like this and the gas-checked bullets, there was virtually no leading.

When I go for deer later this year, it’s going to be with this rifle.  One shot.  I think that’s all I’ll need.   We’ll see.

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